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Tax evasion using M-Pesa
Fyatu
#1 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 3:56:43 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,585
Location: Nakuru
I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.

And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).

The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.

Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this?
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
nairobby
#2 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 5:11:30 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/18/2019
Posts: 151
Location: kenya
Fyatu wrote:
I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.

And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).

The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.

Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this?


Hehehe they are very notorious for this. Watu walipe ushuru. KRA have a hotline you can snitch onLaughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
sparkly
#3 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 5:48:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 7,285
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
Fyatu wrote:
I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.

And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).

The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.

Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this?


How do you know they don't pay tax? The only way to avoid taxes is to go 100% cash, but even that is not fool proof.
Life is short. Live passionately.
kawi254
#4 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 6:18:08 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2015
Posts: 334
Location: Nairobi
sparkly wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.

And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).

The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.

Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this?


How do you know they don't pay tax? The only way to avoid taxes is to go 100% cash, but even that is not fool proof.


I know of a small petrol stations owner who has registered as an M-PESA agent so basically when you pay by withdrawing from M-PESA Agent you are paying Him.

Could it be a way of escaping Merchant fees charged by Safaricom on Paybill/Buy Goods and also gaining from M-PESA Agent fees?

....does KRA have access to M-PESA transactions? recent media reports of KRA wanting M-PESA transaction data seems to point that they don't have it.
Spikes
#5 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 6:18:29 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/20/2015
Posts: 2,679
Location: Mombasa
sparkly wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.

And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).

The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.

Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this?


How do you know they don't pay tax? The only way to avoid taxes is to go 100% cash, but even that is not fool proof.

Hao majamaa huwa hawalipi ushuru. Hatuwezi wabebea mzigo...Yaani tulipe ushuru we Kenyans halafu wao wapate good services from the government for free. No way.
John 5:17But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.”
VituVingiSana
#6 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 6:30:19 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 16,421
Location: Nairobi
Fyatu wrote:
I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.

And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).

The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.

Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this?
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly I closed the books on KK and ARM a long time ago so where is the shoe still pinching you?

Kenya: Country's Debt and Budget Deficit a Spending, Not Revenue, Problem
https://allafrica.com/stories/201906170102.html

You should also "ongeza ya kutoa" when you pay by M-Pesa.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Fyatu
#7 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 6:36:28 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,585
Location: Nakuru
sparkly wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.

And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).

The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.

Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this?


How do you know they don't pay tax? The only way to avoid taxes is to go 100% cash, but even that is not fool proof.


It is something i found irregular and smelled of corruption and tax evasion.In the USA they usually say...If you see something, say something.....
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
Fyatu
#8 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 6:55:32 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,585
Location: Nakuru
Is it still mandatory to have ETR machines in business premises? I once(sio ktambo) visited Voi town and found that almost all businesses(e.g., butcheries, bars and restaurants, lodging and accommodation) offered ETR receipts. Could Voi be the most tax compliant town in Kenya?
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
Angelica _ann
#9 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 7:06:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 10,857
KRA are trying, my account at Memba was blocked in June until i had to take my KRA PIN number. Wonder how this will help in compliance?
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
sparkly
#10 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 7:09:57 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 7,285
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
Fyatu wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.

And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).

The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.

Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this?


How do you know they don't pay tax? The only way to avoid taxes is to go 100% cash, but even that is not fool proof.


It is something i found irregular and smelled of corruption and tax evasion.In the USA they usually say...If you see something, say something.....


This is Kenya. It is for everyone to assess their own taxes and for KRA confirm compliance. There is no prescribed method of collecting sales as long as prescribed records are kept, taxes computed, returns done and taxes paid.
Life is short. Live passionately.
Fyatu
#11 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 8:10:54 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,585
Location: Nakuru
sparkly wrote:


This is Kenya. It is for everyone to assess their own taxes and for KRA confirm compliance. There is no prescribed method of collecting sales as long as prescribed records are kept, taxes computed, returns done and taxes paid.


1. Why then would a butcher or a petro-station attendant or a barman ask that instead of me paying them via lipa-na-mpesa, i should withdraw the amount owed from a certain M-Pesa agent number?

2. Why am i withdrawing cash that i cannot see and how does this count as payment?

3. Why make an otherwise simple transaction so complicated?

4. What are they hiding?

5. How does M-Pesa business model work?
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
kayhara
#12 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 8:32:09 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/5/2011
Posts: 1,022
The withdrawal from an agent is like the Gmail draft that terrorists used to communicate, a guy in Iran would compose a message in Gmail but save it as a draft, then an accomplice inside the US or anywhere would open the gmail account read and delete the draft, the email was not sent so google didn't see shit.

Now for agent withdrawal you the customer pay the fees, the vendor does not pay safcom or bank for vendor fee which saf charges vendors on the lipa na Mpesa platform, in the withdrawal arrangement the customer not only pays the fees but the vendor gets paid by saf, sweet deal both ways for the vendor.
To Each His Own
Fyatu
#13 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 8:48:34 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,585
Location: Nakuru
kayhara wrote:
The withdrawal from an agent is like the Gmail draft that terrorists used to communicate, a guy in Iran would compose a message in Gmail but save it as a draft, then an accomplice inside the US or anywhere would open the gmail account read and delete the draft, the email was not sent so google didn't see shit.

Now for agent withdrawal you the customer pay the fees, the vendor does not pay safcom or bank for vendor fee which saf charges vendors on the lipa na Mpesa platform, in the withdrawal arrangement the customer not only pays the fees but the vendor gets paid by saf, sweet deal both ways for the vendor.



Applause Applause Applause This makes a lot of sense. I knew there was something fishy. I asked the bartender about it but he kept on dodging.

I hope Safaricom/KRA fellas are on wazua. Kenyans are once again being exploited through their wonderful and very helpful service(M-pesa). Worst still, the nation is being denied much needed tax. Somebady's gotta plug-the-hole soon.

Na iwafikie wahusika wakuu
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
Extraterrestrial
#14 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 9:15:42 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 11/17/2018
Posts: 57
Location: Mars
Fyatu wrote:
Is it still mandatory to have ETR machines in business premises? I once(sio ktambo) visited Voi town and found that almost all businesses(e.g., butcheries, bars and restaurants, lodging and accommodation) offered ETR receipts. Could Voi be the most tax compliant town in Kenya?


On-ground surveillance is better in smaller towns, rather than the predominantly risk-based compliance checks in larger cities like Nairobi and Mombasa.
VituVingiSana
#15 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 9:17:30 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 16,421
Location: Nairobi
Fyatu wrote:
sparkly wrote:


This is Kenya. It is for everyone to assess their own taxes and for KRA confirm compliance. There is no prescribed method of collecting sales as long as prescribed records are kept, taxes computed, returns done and taxes paid.

1. Why then would a butcher or a petro-station attendant or a barman ask that instead of me paying them via lipa-na-mpesa, i should withdraw the amount owed from a certain M-Pesa agent number?

Kwani, how is it that YOU only end up at such businesses?
Why are you not going to other businesses?
Is there a cost/fee to the merchant from M-Pesa?


Are the sales legit meaning are you buying what the EMPLOYEE (not the BUSINESS) is selling? *If a bar owner is not watching the bartender and waiters can sell beer/whiskey/vodka/alcohol - bought by the bartender at wholesale - at bar prices for cash. These profits go to the bartender and waiters and not to the OWNERS of the bar.

2. Why am i withdrawing cash that i cannot see and how does this count as payment?

Why? Why? Why? Go elsewhere. Demand an ETR.

3. Why make an otherwise simple transaction so complicated?

4. What are they hiding?

5. How does M-Pesa business model work?
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
VituVingiSana
#16 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 9:21:29 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 16,421
Location: Nairobi
Fyatu wrote:
kayhara wrote:
The withdrawal from an agent is like the Gmail draft that terrorists used to communicate, a guy in Iran would compose a message in Gmail but save it as a draft, then an accomplice inside the US or anywhere would open the gmail account read and delete the draft, the email was not sent so google didn't see shit.

Now for agent withdrawal you the customer pay the fees, the vendor does not pay safcom or bank for vendor fee which saf charges vendors on the lipa na Mpesa platform, in the withdrawal arrangement the customer not only pays the fees but the vendor gets paid by saf, sweet deal both ways for the vendor.


Applause Applause Applause This makes a lot of sense. I knew there was something fishy. I asked the bartender about it but he kept on dodging.

I hope Safaricom/KRA fellas are on wazua. Kenyans are once again being exploited through their wonderful and very helpful service(M-pesa). Worst still, the nation is being denied much needed tax. Somebady's gotta plug-the-hole soon.

Na iwafikie wahusika wakuu
Why are you OK with paying 3% (or more) for your booze by agreeing to use that system? Kwani, is it a monopoly?
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Fyatu
#17 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 10:52:37 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,585
Location: Nakuru
VituVingiSana wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
sparkly wrote:


This is Kenya. It is for everyone to assess their own taxes and for KRA confirm compliance. There is no prescribed method of collecting sales as long as prescribed records are kept, taxes computed, returns done and taxes paid.

1. Why then would a butcher or a petro-station attendant or a barman ask that instead of me paying them via lipa-na-mpesa, i should withdraw the amount owed from a certain M-Pesa agent number?

Kwani, how is it that YOU only end up at such businesses?
Why are you not going to other businesses?
Is there a cost/fee to the merchant from M-Pesa?


Are the sales legit meaning are you buying what the EMPLOYEE (not the BUSINESS) is selling? *If a bar owner is not watching the bartender and waiters can sell beer/whiskey/vodka/alcohol - bought by the bartender at wholesale - at bar prices for cash. These profits go to the bartender and waiters and not to the OWNERS of the bar.

2. Why am i withdrawing cash that i cannot see and how does this count as payment?

Why? Why? Why? Go elsewhere. Demand an ETR.

3. Why make an otherwise simple transaction so complicated?

4. What are they hiding?

5. How does M-Pesa business model work?


For the pub/booze scenario it has happened twice in the same pub and this last time (on Saturday) is when i asked questions. The first time lets say i was a bit jolly, but still noted something was odd.

I prefer doing lipa-na-mpesa for everything from Supermarket to Mama n'tilie.

As for the big mall experience, lets just say the guy across the counter asked me to send payment to his mobile number after i had haggled a decent 5% discount.(I enjoy haggling with members of the 44th tribe of Kenya). Also, i actually have no ill feelings for them.They are cool peeps who have a very rich culture of tasty foods and powerful herbs(medicinal) and are good businessmen for that matter.Its just that when i got home in the evening and meditated i felt the transaction was not right.
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
Fyatu
#18 Posted : Monday, October 07, 2019 11:05:28 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/20/2011
Posts: 1,585
Location: Nakuru
kawi254 wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.

And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).

The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.

Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this?


How do you know they don't pay tax? The only way to avoid taxes is to go 100% cash, but even that is not fool proof.


I know of a small petrol stations owner who has registered as an M-PESA agent so basically when you pay by withdrawing from M-PESA Agent you are paying Him.

Could it be a way of escaping Merchant fees charged by Safaricom on Paybill/Buy Goods and also gaining from M-PESA Agent fees?

....does KRA have access to M-PESA transactions? recent media reports of KRA wanting M-PESA transaction data seems to point that they don't have it.


How does Safaricom make money from Lipa-na-mpesa "buy goods service"? Is this what you are referring as merchant fees? What advantages does a till number have that will make a business want to incur costs for it in the form of merchant fees?

Note. I am not suggesting they start charging the customer for it.
Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
sparkly
#19 Posted : Tuesday, October 08, 2019 1:29:16 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 7,285
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
Fyatu wrote:
sparkly wrote:


This is Kenya. It is for everyone to assess their own taxes and for KRA confirm compliance. There is no prescribed method of collecting sales as long as prescribed records are kept, taxes computed, returns done and taxes paid.


1. Why then would a butcher or a petro-station attendant or a barman ask that instead of me paying them via lipa-na-mpesa, i should withdraw the amount owed from a certain M-Pesa agent number?

2. Why am i withdrawing cash that i cannot see and how does this count as payment?

3. Why make an otherwise simple transaction so complicated?

4. What are they hiding?

5. How does M-Pesa business model work?


My friend these shenanigans should not worry you.

If KRA wants to know how the sales made by the retailer, they will simply:

1. Get the purchases (Cost of Goods Sold) from the distributors like eabl. Distributors tend to keep accurate records;
2. Make adjustment for stocks (if any) held by the retailer;
3. Apply a the standard margin between the wholesale and retail prices (most products gave a rrp);
4. Voila, they have the sales made. It is up to the taxpayer to proof otherwise.

Don't bother yourself. The tax man is paid to do this work.
Life is short. Live passionately.
NewMoney
#20 Posted : Tuesday, October 08, 2019 3:12:42 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/1/2019
Posts: 100
Location: Nairobi
Fyatu wrote:
kawi254 wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Fyatu wrote:
I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.

And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).

The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.

Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this?


How do you know they don't pay tax? The only way to avoid taxes is to go 100% cash, but even that is not fool proof.


I know of a small petrol stations owner who has registered as an M-PESA agent so basically when you pay by withdrawing from M-PESA Agent you are paying Him.

Could it be a way of escaping Merchant fees charged by Safaricom on Paybill/Buy Goods and also gaining from M-PESA Agent fees?

....does KRA have access to M-PESA transactions? recent media reports of KRA wanting M-PESA transaction data seems to point that they don't have it.


How does Safaricom make money from Lipa-na-mpesa "buy goods service"? Is this what you are referring as merchant fees? What advantages does a till number have that will make a business want to incur costs for it in the form of merchant fees?

Note. I am not suggesting they start charging the customer for it.


These are some of the advantages merchants get with till number

1)Once you pay with lipa na mpesa you can't reverse the transaction, only the merchant can authorise the reverse,
2) there is no limit how much money can be collected on a till number.
3) Cash handling is risky and expensive, money can be stolen by thugs or by fraudulent employees, mpesa provides a great alternative
4) a till number typically charges 1% of all money paid to it which is much cheaper than credit/debit cards which charge over 3% in most cases
5) customers spend more when paying via mpesa, since they typically have access to more money in mpesa than in cash
6) merchants get a nice portal where they can audit all payments in a computer and transfer the funds to a bank account, much easier than you can do if you receive the money on a regular mpesa line
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