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Andela Lay-offs
Vallerrie
#1 Posted : Saturday, September 21, 2019 11:36:44 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/1/2012
Posts: 290
I have a couple of friends who are affected by this and it got me wondering, what hope is there for aspiring developers if the biggest and best funded tech firm in the country cannot find work for junior devs?
I thought Software Engineers were in top demand worldwide?
NewMoney
#2 Posted : Saturday, September 21, 2019 12:57:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/1/2019
Posts: 155
Location: Nairobi
Vallerrie wrote:
I have a couple of friends who are affected by this and it got me wondering, what hope is there for aspiring developers if the biggest and best funded tech firm in the country cannot find work for junior devs?
I thought Software Engineers were in top demand worldwide?


Experienced software engineers are in top demand. You need at least 2 to 4 years of solid experience to enter this league and if you are passionate you can get this by the time you finish University. As far as I know, the mistake Andela made was thinking they can hire inexperienced but smart guys with zero computer science knowledge and train them to work for global companies, that has never worked, programming is not for everyone and even some very smart people just don't get it, that is why it is always better to go for people with solid experience.

Unfortunately it looks like Andela will have to pivot from their original mission of training Africa how to program. Now they are going for experienced guys and I suspect they will soon need to bring in eastern Europe or Indian developers to help with the workload.
Vallerrie
#3 Posted : Saturday, September 21, 2019 1:13:19 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/1/2012
Posts: 290
NewMoney wrote:
Vallerrie wrote:
I have a couple of friends who are affected by this and it got me wondering, what hope is there for aspiring developers if the biggest and best funded tech firm in the country cannot find work for junior devs?
I thought Software Engineers were in top demand worldwide?


Experienced software engineers are in top demand. You need at least 2 to 4 years of solid experience to enter this league and if you are passionate you can get this by the time you finish University. As far as I know, the mistake Andela made was thinking they can hire inexperienced but smart guys with zero computer science knowledge and train them to work for global companies, that has never worked, programming is not for everyone and even some very smart people just don't get it, that is why it is always better to go for people with solid experience.

Unfortunately it looks like Andela will have to pivot from their original mission of training Africa how to program. Now they are going for experienced guys and I suspect they will soon need to bring in eastern Europe or Indian developers to help with the workload.


Totally agree, but who’s gonna take the responsibility of moving these junior engineers to senior level?
Mike Ock
#4 Posted : Saturday, September 21, 2019 1:38:22 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/22/2015
Posts: 668
Vallerrie wrote:
NewMoney wrote:
Vallerrie wrote:
I have a couple of friends who are affected by this and it got me wondering, what hope is there for aspiring developers if the biggest and best funded tech firm in the country cannot find work for junior devs?
I thought Software Engineers were in top demand worldwide?


Experienced software engineers are in top demand. You need at least 2 to 4 years of solid experience to enter this league and if you are passionate you can get this by the time you finish University. As far as I know, the mistake Andela made was thinking they can hire inexperienced but smart guys with zero computer science knowledge and train them to work for global companies, that has never worked, programming is not for everyone and even some very smart people just don't get it, that is why it is always better to go for people with solid experience.

Unfortunately it looks like Andela will have to pivot from their original mission of training Africa how to program. Now they are going for experienced guys and I suspect they will soon need to bring in eastern Europe or Indian developers to help with the workload.


Totally agree, but who’s gonna take the responsibility of moving these junior engineers to senior level?


Itabidi wajipange sasa. Maybe they could try contribute to some open source projects like Wordpress, Linux or Raspberry Pi.
dsktop
#5 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2019 12:44:09 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/17/2007
Posts: 53
Vallerrie wrote:
I have a couple of friends who are affected by this and it got me wondering, what hope is there for aspiring developers if the biggest and best funded tech firm in the country cannot find work for junior devs?
I thought Software Engineers were in top demand worldwide?


There is a gap......Just not local
LinkedIn is training Food Truck drivers et al..

https://www.cnbc.com/201...and%20recruiting%20ranks.
Systemd22
#6 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2019 1:12:33 PM
Rank: Hello


Joined: 4/25/2017
Posts: 3
It's unfortunate.

Perhaps they should try and develop their own apps that address common issues in our community such as:

-Gated estate management (bills, vacant houses etc)
-Dating sites (capitalise on the weaknesses of the existing ones in kenya)
-School management systems
-'logistics in demand' --> find space in logistics e.g I can take your clothes to the dry cleaner for you, i can do the supermarket shopping for you
-package the whole back to school stress as a package: Uniform, text books,exercise books, new CBC stationery, school box,supermarket shopping, possibly transport as well. If done well the developer does not need to own these products beforehand.

Therefore:
-let them become their own start ups
-Users are not interested in the seniority of the developer so long as the solution is reliable and secure.
-They have to be passionate about their career path, its continuous learning in this field and hands on otherwise it will be frustrating..

All the best them.

Vallerrie
#7 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2019 2:15:47 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/1/2012
Posts: 290
Systemd22 wrote:
It's unfortunate.

Perhaps they should try and develop their own apps that address common issues in our community such as:

-Gated estate management (bills, vacant houses etc)
-Dating sites (capitalise on the weaknesses of the existing ones in kenya)
-School management systems
-'logistics in demand' --> find space in logistics e.g I can take your clothes to the dry cleaner for you, i can do the supermarket shopping for you
-package the whole back to school stress as a package: Uniform, text books,exercise books, new CBC stationery, school box,supermarket shopping, possibly transport as well. If done well the developer does not need to own these products beforehand.

Therefore:
-let them become their own start ups
-Users are not interested in the seniority of the developer so long as the solution is reliable and secure.
-They have to be passionate about their career path, its continuous learning in this field and hands on otherwise it will be frustrating..

All the best them.



This makes so much sense
NewMoney
#8 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2019 3:12:56 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/1/2019
Posts: 155
Location: Nairobi
dsktop wrote:
Vallerrie wrote:
I have a couple of friends who are affected by this and it got me wondering, what hope is there for aspiring developers if the biggest and best funded tech firm in the country cannot find work for junior devs?
I thought Software Engineers were in top demand worldwide?


There is a gap......Just not local
LinkedIn is training Food Truck drivers et al..

https://www.cnbc.com/201...d%20recruiting%20ranks.



Have you ever tried to hire qualified software engineers locally, they are there but they won't take less than 300k, a good percentage are bringing in over 500k and the elites have no limit literally

So the gap is there locally, otherwise, these ones would be desperate to take small salaries like other engineering graduates (mechanical, electrical)
NewMoney
#9 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2019 3:18:40 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/1/2019
Posts: 155
Location: Nairobi
Systemd22 wrote:
It's unfortunate.

Perhaps they should try and develop their own apps that address common issues in our community such as:

-Gated estate management (bills, vacant houses etc)
-Dating sites (capitalise on the weaknesses of the existing ones in kenya)
-School management systems
-'logistics in demand' --> find space in logistics e.g I can take your clothes to the dry cleaner for you, i can do the supermarket shopping for you
-package the whole back to school stress as a package: Uniform, text books,exercise books, new CBC stationery, school box,supermarket shopping, possibly transport as well. If done well the developer does not need to own these products beforehand.

Therefore:
-let them become their own start ups
-Users are not interested in the seniority of the developer so long as the solution is reliable and secure.
-They have to be passionate about their career path, its continuous learning in this field and hands on otherwise it will be frustrating..

All the best them.



This is the only way good software engineers are born and it is the most important indicator of future success you can get from a developer's CV, by trying to build own apps, they learn how to wrestle problems and think like a user, manager, engineer and programmer. Hawa wengine wanafikiria there is a shortcut training through bootcamps and on-the-work training should just go to other less intensive fields like networking, system administration e.t.c
tony stark
#10 Posted : Wednesday, August 05, 2020 12:29:50 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 881
NewMoney wrote:
dsktop wrote:
Vallerrie wrote:
I have a couple of friends who are affected by this and it got me wondering, what hope is there for aspiring developers if the biggest and best funded tech firm in the country cannot find work for junior devs?
I thought Software Engineers were in top demand worldwide?


There is a gap......Just not local
LinkedIn is training Food Truck drivers et al..

https://www.cnbc.com/201...d%20recruiting%20ranks.



Have you ever tried to hire qualified software engineers locally, they are there but they won't take less than 300k, a good percentage are bringing in over 500k and the elites have no limit literally

So the gap is there locally, otherwise, these ones would be desperate to take small salaries like other engineering graduates (mechanical, electrical)


Ati What?? And I can hire better people on upworks?? How!!
quicksand
#11 Posted : Wednesday, August 05, 2020 1:10:43 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,035
Location: Nairobi
tony stark wrote:
NewMoney wrote:
dsktop wrote:
Vallerrie wrote:
I have a couple of friends who are affected by this and it got me wondering, what hope is there for aspiring developers if the biggest and best funded tech firm in the country cannot find work for junior devs?
I thought Software Engineers were in top demand worldwide?


There is a gap......Just not local
LinkedIn is training Food Truck drivers et al..

https://www.cnbc.com/201...d%20recruiting%20ranks.



Have you ever tried to hire qualified software engineers locally, they are there but they won't take less than 300k, a good percentage are bringing in over 500k and the elites have no limit literally

So the gap is there locally, otherwise, these ones would be desperate to take small salaries like other engineering graduates (mechanical, electrical)


Ati What?? And I can hire better people on upworks?? How!!


Upwork is for gigs.
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly There are gigs and then there is Software Engineering. The former are temporary, time-boxed jobs and the second is a career. Developers do both and each have their use cases. Its the same as when you hire a guy who was involved in the design of 2 Rivers for example to design your residential house.
If you have never found yourself needing a Software Engineer in a non-gig context, your business computing needs are not big enough - this is not me putting you down, it is just what it is.
A Software Engineer is someone who builds you the System equivalent of 2 Rivers, Burj Khalifa, Boeing 777. To try put that in perspective, think of trillion-dollar behemoths such as Google, Facebook...or on a smaller scale, SportPesa. That is all Software. Not raw materials, manufacturing, mining, buildings, oil, tangible merchandise ...lines of code. When you are even at a small fraction of this frame in size, ambition, scale and complexity, you will need to be chasing engineers who are already employed and very well compensated. You need to entice them from elsewhere. You will get shocked when you are offering pay similar to the kind given to heads of departments and guys still laughing in your face.
Microsoft has an office in Nairobi. They start junior engineers at ~600k.
quicksand
#12 Posted : Wednesday, August 05, 2020 1:38:19 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,035
Location: Nairobi
dsktop wrote:
[quote=Vallerrie]I have a couple of friends who are affected by this and it got me wondering, what hope is there for aspiring developers if the biggest and best funded tech firm in the country cannot find work for junior devs?
I thought Software Engineers were in top demand worldwide?


There is a gap......Just not local
LinkedIn is training Food Truck drivers et al..

https://www.cnbc.com/201...d%20recruiting%20ranks.[/quote]

This strategy usually doesn't pan out in the long term. This is similar to Apple and others dropping degree requirements for code monkeys.
https://www.cnbc.com/201...e-a-college-degree.html
They are just trying to arrest the runaway compensation cost of Engineers. May be it will work out for them in the short term. For anyone considering a career in Software Engineering forgoing undergrad CS for the apprentice/bootcamp/industry-focused path is a very bad idea. Programming and Computer Science sit on a higher level, the slog in the degree breaks your brain then rebuilds it so that you are ready for any kind of programming.
The apprentice/bootcamp/industry-focused approach teaches people particular technologies (stacks) and/or languages. With dedication and hard work, you can learn and become a productive worker in a narrow context. Usually what happens is disruption arrives (or velocity keeps increasing) and suddenly adapting becomes difficult. This is because there are missing links that are taught in school. Math, analysis, comprehension, operating systems, architecture, data structures, algorithms, different kinds of programming (Procedural,OOP, FP, Logic)... You need to do school, while working and taking care of family to become a versatile engineer. It becomes a tall order, this new breed of engineers burn out or can't keep up, and the companies all go back to the true and tested method.
tony stark
#13 Posted : Wednesday, August 05, 2020 4:31:02 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 881
quicksand wrote:
tony stark wrote:
NewMoney wrote:
dsktop wrote:
Vallerrie wrote:
I have a couple of friends who are affected by this and it got me wondering, what hope is there for aspiring developers if the biggest and best funded tech firm in the country cannot find work for junior devs?
I thought Software Engineers were in top demand worldwide?


There is a gap......Just not local
LinkedIn is training Food Truck drivers et al..

https://www.cnbc.com/201...d%20recruiting%20ranks.



Have you ever tried to hire qualified software engineers locally, they are there but they won't take less than 300k, a good percentage are bringing in over 500k and the elites have no limit literally

So the gap is there locally, otherwise, these ones would be desperate to take small salaries like other engineering graduates (mechanical, electrical)


Ati What?? And I can hire better people on upworks?? How!!


Upwork is for gigs.
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly There are gigs and then there is Software Engineering. The former are temporary, time-boxed jobs and the second is a career. Developers do both and each have their use cases. Its the same as when you hire a guy who was involved in the design of 2 Rivers for example to design your residential house.
If you have never found yourself needing a Software Engineer in a non-gig context, your business computing needs are not big enough - this is not me putting you down, it is just what it is.
A Software Engineer is someone who builds you the System equivalent of 2 Rivers, Burj Khalifa, Boeing 777. To try put that in perspective, think of trillion-dollar behemoths such as Google, Facebook...or on a smaller scale, SportPesa. That is all Software. Not raw materials, manufacturing, mining, buildings, oil, tangible merchandise ...lines of code. When you are even at a small fraction of this frame in size, ambition, scale and complexity, you will need to be chasing engineers who are already employed and very well compensated. You need to entice them from elsewhere. You will get shocked when you are offering pay similar to the kind given to heads of departments and guys still laughing in your face.
Microsoft has an office in Nairobi. They start junior engineers at ~600k.


d'oh! d'oh! d'oh! d'oh!

Ngai! So I should have moved on from MS-Dos and ICDL to coding.

Anyway I get you point but a big project is a series of gigs carried out in house. With clarity on what you want to do you can outsource alot of the work you want. Granted this isn't possible for the Sportpesa of the world.

Let's wait for AI coded software they might be cheaper!! Then my ICDL skills will be useful again.
quicksand
#14 Posted : Wednesday, August 05, 2020 5:24:29 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,035
Location: Nairobi
tony stark wrote:
quicksand wrote:
tony stark wrote:
NewMoney wrote:
dsktop wrote:
Vallerrie wrote:
I have a couple of friends who are affected by this and it got me wondering, what hope is there for aspiring developers if the biggest and best funded tech firm in the country cannot find work for junior devs?
I thought Software Engineers were in top demand worldwide?


There is a gap......Just not local
LinkedIn is training Food Truck drivers et al..

https://www.cnbc.com/201...d%20recruiting%20ranks.



Have you ever tried to hire qualified software engineers locally, they are there but they won't take less than 300k, a good percentage are bringing in over 500k and the elites have no limit literally

So the gap is there locally, otherwise, these ones would be desperate to take small salaries like other engineering graduates (mechanical, electrical)


Ati What?? And I can hire better people on upworks?? How!!


Upwork is for gigs.
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly There are gigs and then there is Software Engineering. The former are temporary, time-boxed jobs and the second is a career. Developers do both and each have their use cases. Its the same as when you hire a guy who was involved in the design of 2 Rivers for example to design your residential house.
If you have never found yourself needing a Software Engineer in a non-gig context, your business computing needs are not big enough - this is not me putting you down, it is just what it is.
A Software Engineer is someone who builds you the System equivalent of 2 Rivers, Burj Khalifa, Boeing 777. To try put that in perspective, think of trillion-dollar behemoths such as Google, Facebook...or on a smaller scale, SportPesa. That is all Software. Not raw materials, manufacturing, mining, buildings, oil, tangible merchandise ...lines of code. When you are even at a small fraction of this frame in size, ambition, scale and complexity, you will need to be chasing engineers who are already employed and very well compensated. You need to entice them from elsewhere. You will get shocked when you are offering pay similar to the kind given to heads of departments and guys still laughing in your face.
Microsoft has an office in Nairobi. They start junior engineers at ~600k.


d'oh! d'oh! d'oh! d'oh!

Ngai! So I should have moved on from MS-Dos and ICDL to coding.

Anyway I get you point but a big project is a series of gigs carried out in house. With clarity on what you want to do you can outsource alot of the work you want. Granted this isn't possible for the Sportpesa of the world.

Let's wait for AI coded software they might be cheaper!! Then my ICDL skills will be useful again.


May be Laughing out loudly
But ....you can make a success of any chosen career. You are not losing anything, even though the stories floating around can give that impression. Success requires hard work and toughing it out. No different in IT.
The day-to-day in Software Engineering is bruising. It goes on for years and wears people down to the bone. You get worked like a donkey. After 3 to 5 years, people are seriously looking to filter up to management or leadership, and those who are unable, exit the profession.
The good thing is if you survive, your gain deep expertise. Work that needs deep experience and pays very well starts showing up. Employers are also more willing to pay after trying shortcuts and getting badly burnt (failed projects, sunk costs, opportunity costs)
eangaga
#15 Posted : Thursday, August 06, 2020 12:08:53 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 11/15/2016
Posts: 26
quicksand wrote:
dsktop wrote:
[quote=Vallerrie]I have a couple of friends who are affected by this and it got me wondering, what hope is there for aspiring developers if the biggest and best funded tech firm in the country cannot find work for junior devs?
I thought Software Engineers were in top demand worldwide?


There is a gap......Just not local
LinkedIn is training Food Truck drivers et al..

https://www.cnbc.com/201...d%20recruiting%20ranks.[/quote]

This strategy usually doesn't pan out in the long term. This is similar to Apple and others dropping degree requirements for code monkeys.
https://www.cnbc.com/201...e-a-college-degree.html
They are just trying to arrest the runaway compensation cost of Engineers. May be it will work out for them in the short term. For anyone considering a career in Software Engineering forgoing undergrad CS for the apprentice/bootcamp/industry-focused path is a very bad idea. Programming and Computer Science sit on a higher level, the slog in the degree breaks your brain then rebuilds it so that you are ready for any kind of programming.
The apprentice/bootcamp/industry-focused approach teaches people particular technologies (stacks) and/or languages. With dedication and hard work, you can learn and become a productive worker in a narrow context. Usually what happens is disruption arrives (or velocity keeps increasing) and suddenly adapting becomes difficult. This is because there are missing links that are taught in school. Math, analysis, comprehension, operating systems, architecture, data structures, algorithms, different kinds of programming (Procedural,OOP, FP, Logic)... You need to do school, while working and taking care of family to become a versatile engineer. It becomes a tall order, this new breed of engineers burn out or can't keep up, and the companies all go back to the true and tested method.


This is my field and I know a thing or two about it. KU guy but working dutch company now.
Software Engineering, Computer Science, and computer engineering...these people could do similar jobs out of college depending on where they interned or what they majored on.
In the west, most coding is outsourced. If you are coding a page on a website, it would be easier to outsource such small tasks. When the outsourcing, at least one guy has to be internal to monitor the guy in Pakistan doing the coding. So to be successful, you want to be the manager of other experts.
Codes can be re used. You have one guy coding in Russia, his program is re used by millions...so the effect of this is we make things smarter and easier to program. They are automating alot of programming right now. Terms like self healing code if you want to know what I mean.
The jobs are shrinking for the developers but they have their place.
Andela, to me looked like a gig site to me. Too much flare but no solid paths to real world Jobs.

There are jobs, the team there should just know where to look.
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