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UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson
radiomast
#41 Posted : Wednesday, February 19, 2020 10:12:46 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 425
madhaquer wrote:


I would rather the corruption and backwardness we have today than the racism, poverty, violence, forced labor and hut tax of colonialism.
Just go study the real history not the glamour perpetrated by the west.


1. Racism is just as bad as tribalism. Only those who are benefiting from tribalism don't think so. Those of us who are victimized by tribalism don't see it as any different from racism.

2. Colonial taxes were used to build schools, roads, airports, houses, railways, stadiums and other infrastructure. The Muzungu put the infrastructure to much better use than Mwafika has done.

Institutions like Kenyatta hospital were built for Africans. Mwafrika has not built anything of that stature.

All the stadiums in Kenya were built by Muzungu. Only Kasarani and Nyayo were built after independence.

Most low income public housing in Nairobi was built by Muzungu. Mwafrika has left housing to individual landlords and slumlords to build substandard houses.

Quote:
What happened under the guise of colonialism would today be rightfully classified as genocide. Let me live free with this corrupt loyalists than suffer the racism and wrath of colonialism. Never again!


Jomo, Moi, Kibaki and UK have all committed genocide as well. I would venture to say they have killed more Kenyans than Muzungu ever did.

Waggalla masscare 1984, Kisumu Massacre 1969, Likoni Massacre 1991, Land clashes, PEV 2008, all the people killed during political protests , all the political prisoners killed and so forth .................


radiomast
#42 Posted : Wednesday, February 19, 2020 10:23:50 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 425
In terms of land grabbing, Mwafika has stolen or grabbed for more public land than Muzungu ever did. The Kenyatta family alone has grabbed so much land that they can fit a medium sized county.

And every day you read in the papers how the grandchildren of independence era politicians are fighting over inheritance worth billions of dollars because these politicians were able to secure huge tracts of land through patronage.

Ati Kasanga Mulwa owns 3461 acres of land near Nairobi national park. How the heck did a judge pull that off during a time when judges made kitu Ksh 5000 per month ?


Ati Isaiah Mathenge owns 10,000 acres near Nyeri town and sijui Njenga Karume owns 20,000 acres in one of his plots.

https://www.ogiek.org/indepth/ind-who-owns-the-land.htm


The impact of this land theft is that:

1. Many were uprooted from their homes thus leaving them landless or forcing them to go live among strangers.

2. The cost of land is now super high thus reducing foreign investment this reducing jobs.Investors would rather go to Ethiopia where land is cheap and sometimes even free to investors. No wonder Kenyans are broke and jobless.

3. Land on which infrastructure was to be built was grabbed. Road reserves were grabbed. No wonder Nairobi traffic is insane.

4. Land for drainage channels was grabbed. Riverbeds were drained. No wonder Nairobi floods several times a year.

5. Meanwhile many Kenyans are landless and are uprooting forests at mau, causing extensive damage to environments, droughts and soil erosion.

And you think Mkoloni mistreated Africans?

sqft
#43 Posted : Wednesday, February 19, 2020 10:46:54 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/10/2015
Posts: 934
Location: Kenya
radiomast wrote:
In terms of land grabbing, Mwafika has stolen or grabbed for more public land than Muzungu ever did. The Kenyatta family alone has grabbed so much land that they can fit a medium sized county.

And every day you read in the papers how the grandchildren of independence era politicians are fighting over inheritance worth billions of dollars because these politicians were able to secure huge tracts of land through patronage.

Ati Kasanga Mulwa owns 3461 acres of land near Nairobi national park. How the heck did a judge pull that off during a time when judges made kitu Ksh 5000 per month ?


Ati Isaiah Mathenge owns 10,000 acres near Nyeri town and sijui Njenga Karume owns 20,000 acres in one of his plots.

https://www.ogiek.org/indepth/ind-who-owns-the-land.htm


The impact of this land theft is that:

1. Many were uprooted from their homes thus leaving them landless or forcing them to go live among strangers.

2. The cost of land is now super high thus reducing foreign investment this reducing jobs.Investors would rather go to Ethiopia where land is cheap and sometimes even free to investors. No wonder Kenyans are broke and jobless.

3. Land on which infrastructure was to be built was grabbed. Road reserves were grabbed. No wonder Nairobi traffic is insane.

4. Land for drainage channels was grabbed. Riverbeds were drained. No wonder Nairobi floods several times a year.

5. Meanwhile many Kenyans are landless and are uprooting forests at mau, causing extensive damage to environments, droughts and soil erosion.

And you think Mkoloni mistreated Africans?



But the white man grabbed the whole of kenya, a whole 580,000km2 or 481 million acres and designated it as crown land to do as he wished and put the natives in native villages to provide slave labour to the white mans coffee, tea, sugarcane, cotton, sisal etc farms and ranches. How could land grabbing get worse than that where a foreigner grabs a whole country?
Proverbs 13:11 Dishonest money dwindles away, but whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow.
Lolest!
#44 Posted : Thursday, February 20, 2020 8:09:59 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,064
Location: Kianjokoma
radiomast wrote:
madhaquer wrote:


See an excerpt from Elkin's book.

I soon realized that the British did detain the women and children, though not in the official camps but rather in some eight hundred enclosed villages that were scattered throughout the Kikuyu countryside. These villages were surrounded by spiked trenches, barbed wire, and watchtowers, and were heavily patrolled by armed guards. They were detention camps in all but name. Once I added all of the Kikuyu detained in these villages to the adjusted camp population, I discovered that the British had actually detained some 1.5 million people, or nearly the entire Kikuyu population.


That book sounds bogus. Colonialists can't have detained all Kikuyus. They simply didn't have the resources, the capacity and infrastructure to detain such a large population.

Man, even if you have self hate you don't have to absolve the British from all their ills and deny historical facts

A lot of people who were born then and were aware pf happenings are still alive today and say those things happened.

If you're 're still anti Michela, read the other books about this era. Or try seeing those days through the eyes of a boy in Ngugi's Dreams in a Time of War. Real people experiences of executions,rapes etc
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
2012
#45 Posted : Thursday, February 20, 2020 8:47:36 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 6,592
Location: Nairobi
sqft wrote:
radiomast wrote:
In terms of land grabbing, Mwafika has stolen or grabbed for more public land than Muzungu ever did. The Kenyatta family alone has grabbed so much land that they can fit a medium sized county.

And every day you read in the papers how the grandchildren of independence era politicians are fighting over inheritance worth billions of dollars because these politicians were able to secure huge tracts of land through patronage.

Ati Kasanga Mulwa owns 3461 acres of land near Nairobi national park. How the heck did a judge pull that off during a time when judges made kitu Ksh 5000 per month ?


Ati Isaiah Mathenge owns 10,000 acres near Nyeri town and sijui Njenga Karume owns 20,000 acres in one of his plots.

https://www.ogiek.org/indepth/ind-who-owns-the-land.htm


The impact of this land theft is that:

1. Many were uprooted from their homes thus leaving them landless or forcing them to go live among strangers.

2. The cost of land is now super high thus reducing foreign investment this reducing jobs.Investors would rather go to Ethiopia where land is cheap and sometimes even free to investors. No wonder Kenyans are broke and jobless.

3. Land on which infrastructure was to be built was grabbed. Road reserves were grabbed. No wonder Nairobi traffic is insane.

4. Land for drainage channels was grabbed. Riverbeds were drained. No wonder Nairobi floods several times a year.

5. Meanwhile many Kenyans are landless and are uprooting forests at mau, causing extensive damage to environments, droughts and soil erosion.

And you think Mkoloni mistreated Africans?



But the white man grabbed the whole of kenya, a whole 580,000km2 or 481 million acres and designated it as crown land to do as he wished and put the natives in native villages to provide slave labour to the white mans coffee, tea, sugarcane, cotton, sisal etc farms and ranches. How could land grabbing get worse than that where a foreigner grabs a whole country?


You also need to realize that that was a different time. It was during the era where you could conquer a territory and make it yours. The Romans did it, Alexander the Great, British even tried to conquer North America... The sad thing about now is that the land grabbers are our own people and going against the law. The reason it is so hard to win these many cases against colonization and slavery is because it was not against any law. Most will just remain to be very dark chapters of history, from even before the days of Jesus and that's all. Never forget that the human race is the most evil species on earth.

BBI will solve it
:)
radiomast
#46 Posted : Thursday, February 20, 2020 8:34:59 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 425
Lolest! wrote:



Man, even if you have self hate you don't have to absolve the British from all their ills and deny historical facts

A lot of people who were born then and were aware pf happenings are still alive today and say those things happened.

If you're 're still anti Michela, read the other books about this era. Or try seeing those days through the eyes of a boy in Ngugi's Dreams in a Time of War. Real people experiences of executions,rapes etc



How the heck can the British imprison the entire Gikuyu population. How many guards would they need? How large would this prison need to be?

Also many Kikuyus prospered during the colonial era. Kenneth Matiba's father apparently was a wealthy businessman and among the first Africans to own a car. Matiba himself was appointed as a PS by the colonial government.

I am not absolving the Brits of atrocities. I am saying Africans have done worse long term damage. Kenya is a sheet-hole precisely because of Africans not because of Muzungu. In fact without Muzungu, Kenya would be in worse shape.

I am tired of politicians selling us on this idea that colonialism was bad, yet they are much worse. The log in the eye vs the speck in the eye
radiomast
#47 Posted : Thursday, February 20, 2020 8:51:52 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 425
sqft wrote:


But the white man grabbed the whole of kenya, a whole 580,000km2 or 481 million acres and designated it as crown land to do as he wished and put the natives in native villages to provide slave labour to the white mans coffee, tea, sugarcane, cotton, sisal etc farms and ranches. How could land grabbing get worse than that where a foreigner grabs a whole country?



The white man did not grab all of Kenya. he simply declared it part of the British empire. A declaration that had little impact on most Kenyans. In fact for many Kenyans their encounter with the white man was about the white man converting him to Christianity and making them go to school.

My grandparents would've been illiterate peasants had they not been forced to go to school. In fact in my area, muzungu went around from home to home forcing parents to send their children to school during the 1930s and 1940s. Those Mwafrika who showed aptitude in school were sent to the UK to study how to govern the country. Some were sent to military academies in the UK. Some were sent to police academies and some were sent to Polytechnics. A lucky few were sent to Universities in the UK. So muzungu did not just want to exploit Kenyans. He had a long term view. He wanted Kenya to be part of the British empire but give Mwafrika the ability to properly govern his own territory. By the late 1950s, Kenyans were being given key positions in govt. As I said, Matiba was appointed PS.


Muzungu built hospitals, schools, Universities, housing , stadiums and other infrastructure specifically for Mwafrika. In fact when KNH was built, it was called Native civil hospital;

The slave labor issue is overblown. Africans actually gained food security because they learned better animal husbandry and crop production. Infant mortality rates were reduced significantly due to better access to health.

Kenya becoming a British colony was not a bad thing on balance. We benefited from it more than we lost.

Today there are some countries that are still colonies or territories of Western Nations

USA has: Puerto Rico, American Samoa, US Virgin Islands ....

The UK Has : Montesserat, Bermuda, Anguilla, Cayman, Virgin Islands ......

France has : Guadeloupe, Martinique, Mayotte, Caledonia, Re Union ......

Ask any of the Mwafrikas who live in these territories whether they would like Independence and 80% will give a resounding NO. They have seen the mess other countries have created with Independence.

On evidence, it appears Kenya would be better off if we were still British territory. We likely would have the same freedoms we have today but the country would be better run.

I disagree with the notion that Mwafrika is less intelligent. However I think most of us are incapable of good governance. We think that having a member of our tribe in power is more important than good governance. Thats one reason why Mwafrika countries are sheet-holes.

We lack the willingness to plan ahead and delay gratification. Thats why when a Mwafrika leader engages in corruption, he pretty much loots everything in sight without any regard for what might happen in the future.
T-Bag
#48 Posted : Thursday, February 20, 2020 11:14:34 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/25/2008
Posts: 509
radiomast wrote:
sqft wrote:


But the white man grabbed the whole of kenya, a whole 580,000km2 or 481 million acres and designated it as crown land to do as he wished and put the natives in native villages to provide slave labour to the white mans coffee, tea, sugarcane, cotton, sisal etc farms and ranches. How could land grabbing get worse than that where a foreigner grabs a whole country?



The white man did not grab all of Kenya. he simply declared it part of the British empire. A declaration that had little impact on most Kenyans. In fact for many Kenyans their encounter with the white man was about the white man converting him to Christianity and making them go to school.

My grandparents would've been illiterate peasants had they not been forced to go to school. In fact in my area, muzungu went around from home to home forcing parents to send their children to school during the 1930s and 1940s. Those Mwafrika who showed aptitude in school were sent to the UK to study how to govern the country. Some were sent to military academies in the UK. Some were sent to police academies and some were sent to Polytechnics. A lucky few were sent to Universities in the UK. So muzungu did not just want to exploit Kenyans. He had a long term view. He wanted Kenya to be part of the British empire but give Mwafrika the ability to properly govern his own territory. By the late 1950s, Kenyans were being given key positions in govt. As I said, Matiba was appointed PS.


Muzungu built hospitals, schools, Universities, housing , stadiums and other infrastructure specifically for Mwafrika. In fact when KNH was built, it was called Native civil hospital;

The slave labor issue is overblown. Africans actually gained food security because they learned better animal husbandry and crop production. Infant mortality rates were reduced significantly due to better access to health.

Kenya becoming a British colony was not a bad thing on balance. We benefited from it more than we lost.

Today there are some countries that are still colonies or territories of Western Nations

USA has: Puerto Rico, American Samoa, US Virgin Islands ....

The UK Has : Montesserat, Bermuda, Anguilla, Cayman, Virgin Islands ......

France has : Guadeloupe, Martinique, Mayotte, Caledonia, Re Union ......

Ask any of the Mwafrikas who live in these territories whether they would like Independence and 80% will give a resounding NO. They have seen the mess other countries have created with Independence.

On evidence, it appears Kenya would be better off if we were still British territory. We likely would have the same freedoms we have today but the country would be better run.

I disagree with the notion that Mwafrika is less intelligent. However I think most of us are incapable of good governance. We think that having a member of our tribe in power is more important than good governance. Thats one reason why Mwafrika countries are sheet-holes.

We lack the willingness to plan ahead and delay gratification. Thats why when a Mwafrika leader engages in corruption, he pretty much loots everything in sight without any regard for what might happen in the future.


I agree,I wish to endulge you some more, what I read from history is mostly bad but my great grandma and both grand parents narrated good things about the whites from effective medice, religion, food was big becuase both their white employers had grain silos and water dams which could be given to them in famine as part of wages. My great grandma used to milk cows for a "Bwana Amutala" corrupted name offcourse.

If the british and S.A boers stayed and became citizens, the only challange would have been racism which we could defeat due to nyeusi numbers. may I add that grandpa converted to christianity and became a big time no nonesense Pastor.

Mwafrica has scarcity mentality....even today...the way we chase money is wierd
I AM trust in GOD, I AM belief in THYSELF
Lolest!
#49 Posted : Friday, February 21, 2020 10:22:18 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,064
Location: Kianjokoma
radiomast wrote:
Lolest! wrote:



Man, even if you have self hate you don't have to absolve the British from all their ills and deny historical facts

A lot of people who were born then and were aware pf happenings are still alive today and say those things happened.

If you're 're still anti Michela, read the other books about this era. Or try seeing those days through the eyes of a boy in Ngugi's Dreams in a Time of War. Real people experiences of executions,rapes etc



How the heck can the British imprison the entire Gikuyu population. How many guards would they need? How large would this prison need to be?

Also many Kikuyus prospered during the colonial era. Kenneth Matiba's father apparently was a wealthy businessman and among the first Africans to own a car. Matiba himself was appointed as a PS by the colonial government.

I am not absolving the Brits of atrocities. I am saying Africans have done worse long term damage. Kenya is a sheet-hole precisely because of Africans not because of Muzungu. In fact without Muzungu, Kenya would be in worse shape.

I am tired of politicians selling us on this idea that colonialism was bad, yet they are much worse. The log in the eye vs the speck in the eye

I am not disagreeing on your point that black leadership has been bad, nay, terrible.

I'm disagreeing with your insistence that like for like our leaders are far worse than the Brits. The Brits killed far more than our post Independence governments.

From the time of using force to gain territory, using force to punish (The British in their punitive expeditions killed thousands in the whole country)...

Matiba was only appointed PS in the run up to Independence. We already had Africans running the executive in concert with the governor even before he became PS. His appointment was part of the Africanisation drive those days.

And yes, it was very possible to keep 3 tribes in concentration camps. It happened. Soldiers were all over plus the police and tribal police. Remember even Idi Amin was part of the army sent to crush the Mau Mau??

Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
radiomast
#50 Posted : Friday, February 21, 2020 5:26:57 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 425
I am rather confused with this whole notion of the entire Kikuyu nation being imprisoned. And I don't see how Iddi Amin being sent to fight Mau Mau could have imprisoned a whole tribe.

Clearly Muzungu at some point reached the conclusion that it would be better to engage in education and betterment of Kikuyus and other Kenyans. Missionaries played a key role.

Take the Koinange family for example. Mbiyu Koinange was part of the Pioneer class at Alliance High school in 1926. A school that was founded by Muzungu missionaries. Then in 1931 he was sent to Ohio University. His father cannot have facilitated that move. It must have been the colonial government. His sister was one of the first African trained nurses. The colonial government was now intent on giving deserving students an opportunity to fulfill their potential. And Mbiyu Koinange from what I hear was a brilliant student. There were numerous examples like this.

Mwafrika on the other hand is giving government grants and scholarships to his relatives. These are supposed to be scholarships that are given to brilliant students who can come back home and fulfill a skill that is missing or is in shortage. For example. For a long time Kenya has had a shortage of qualified Neuro-surgeons. But Mwafrika chooses instead to award these government scholarships to his relatives as Kibaki was doing. .

Now back to Mbiyu Koinange. Such a brilliant chap could have used to his talents for the betterment of the country. Kenyatta could have used him as a technocrat and policy expert. He schooled in America so he saw first hand how a properly functioning society works. He could have taken his experiences from America and brought them to newly independent Kenya. But instead, Kenyatta deployed him as a hitman to arrange for the deaths of politicians who actually wanted to do the right thing. And like a true Mwafrika, his stint in the cabinet was about ammassing immense wealth while leaving everyone else destitute. So today his grandchildren are bickering over the Ksh 14 billion in assets that he left. And the man did nothing for Kenya after he was sent overseas so that he could come back and make Kenya better.

I sometimes think that some of these so called mashujaa were fighting for independence so they could get their hands on state resources. Not for the betterment of Kenyans

On the issue of Muzungu killing thousands, consider that in 2008 alone, thousands died all because of our leaders.
Lolest!
#51 Posted : Friday, February 21, 2020 7:21:13 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,064
Location: Kianjokoma
Quote:
I am rather confused with this whole notion of the entire Kikuyu nation being imprisoned. And I don't see how Iddi Amin being sent to fight Mau Mau could have imprisoned a whole tribe.

The soldiers were many, very many from KAR(where Amin served), the British Army, settler volunteers, police and tribal home guard.

So were people kept in prison like Kamiti? No. They were kept in walled concentration camps. Their homes were destroyed & burnt. From then on, movement into and out of these camps was controlled. There was a gate through which you entered the village and in many cases even the time one could leave the camp was limited to a few hours...like going to the fields, with escort & they'd hurry you up even before you could be done with your chores.

Not prison? Yes but very close. When you look at starvation, beatings,rapes & killings in the camps, it amounts to worse than prison!

Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
Lolest!
#52 Posted : Friday, February 21, 2020 10:01:54 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,064
Location: Kianjokoma
Quote:
On the issue of Muzungu killing thousands, consider that in 2008 alone, thousands died all because of our leaders.

PEV was circa 1500 lives lost. People killed in the 1950s range between 12K and 20K

Much earlier punitive expeditions would go as far as soldiers surrounding a village and indiscriminately shooting any moving human

At some point early in the colonial adventure, Meinertzhagen killed 1,500 people!
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
wukan
#53 Posted : Saturday, February 22, 2020 7:59:46 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/13/2015
Posts: 1,506
radiomast wrote:

Take the Koinange family for example. Mbiyu Koinange was part of the Pioneer class at Alliance High school in 1926. A school that was founded by Muzungu missionaries. Then in 1931 he was sent to Ohio University. His father cannot have facilitated that move. It must have been the colonial government. His sister was one of the first African trained nurses. The colonial government was now intent on giving deserving students an opportunity to fulfill their potential. And Mbiyu Koinange from what I hear was a brilliant student. There were numerous examples like this.



Senior Chief Koinange wa Mbiyu was a wealthy man in his own right much richer than most British settlers in Kenya at the time who were kawaida middle class. I think he had over 600 acres of prime Kiambu land. The koinange ancestral was much larger than that before the British grabbed it. That's why he flew to London around 1930 to protest and we ended with Carter land commission. When his son was accused of Chief Waruhiu's murder he brought a barrister from London for the trial and mzunguz were shocked. Chief Koinange could pay American education for his son Mbiyu. America was the cheaper option for miros.

My grandfather not related to the Koinange used to afford high school education in India and Uganda and university in South Africa in 1940s. He got a tender to supply the British troops with food during WWII. So the Brits were not that bad but the local Brit settlers were petty-never liked a black man to succeed.

The Brit settlers were also corrupt. You should read the Rose Commission on corruption scandals in Nairobi when they were given grant money by the British govt to put up african housing in Ofafa and Mbotela. They cut corners with the indian contractors. They sold plots set aside for fire stations





madhaquer
#54 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 2:16:40 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/10/2010
Posts: 263
Location: Nairobi
@Radiomast, please study your history.
Understand the sequence of events in the region from the 1850's onwards. From 1895–1963 the British government took over from British East Africa Company.

My claim is based on what took place in the period from 20 October 1952 to around 1962 during what was called a state of emergency.

It is equally important to understand that despite the colonialists annexing the East Africa region to themselves, they only really settled in the highlands of Kenya, and handpicked the areas that were beneficial to the settlers for their cash crops and ranches.

In fact apart from Kenya, it is only in South Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia where there were actual settler communities. (immigrants who moved in with no intent of ever going back home). In all those countries, independence was delayed.

What is most despicable is that in Kenya power was handed over to the loyalists and not the actual freedom fighters. It is from here that the rot in the government and it's institutions like the judiciary and police force were actually inherited.
sqft
#55 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 3:16:17 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/10/2015
Posts: 934
Location: Kenya
madhaquer wrote:
@Radiomast, please study your history.
Understand the sequence of events in the region from the 1850's onwards. From 1895–1963 the British government took over from British East Africa Company.

My claim is based on what took place in the period from 20 October 1952 to around 1962 during what was called a state of emergency.

It is equally important to understand that despite the colonialists annexing the East Africa region to themselves, they only really settled in the highlands of Kenya, and handpicked the areas that were beneficial to the settlers for their cash crops and ranches.

In fact apart from Kenya, it is only in South Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia where there were actual settler communities. (immigrants who moved in with no intent of ever going back home). In all those countries, independence was delayed.


This is very true. They zoned off the white highlands as european only settlement areas. The locals were thus pushed from their lands to villages (staff quarters on european farms) to provide labour for the european farms. The coffee zones (which were in central kenya) were particularly prized because at the time coffee was very lucrative on the world market and was called the black gold.

Outside the white highlands (i.e mainly central and parts of RV), many locals would not have felt the impacts of colonisation. Infact they may even praise the white man like @radiomast is doing because the only white men they saw in their areas were the missionaries and the DOs/DCs who were building schools and hospitals and forcing locals to go to school.

NB: Nyanza and western werent settled because the white man feared malaria. The lowlands in eastern and southern kenya were arid and not suitable for crop cultivation and some areas also had tse tse flies and thus not suitable for ranching and therefore the white man made many such areas game parks for hunting and tourism. Also narok and kajiado had been reserved for the maasai after they were moved from laikipia to enable white settlement. Northern kenya (i.e beyond isiolo town), turkana, marsabit, northeastern etc were special operation zones where no white men or outsiders were allowed in except for the colonial administrators. Those areas were termed as the northern frontier district and in some of the areas, it was where the british were fighting the italians during the 2nd world war. The area was also notorious for raids particularly from ethiopian tribes.

The white man's plan was to turn kenya into the next new zealand or australia or canada where the natives were subjugated and lived as second class citizens....or even exterminated.
Proverbs 13:11 Dishonest money dwindles away, but whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow.
radiomast
#56 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 5:17:07 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 425
Lolest! wrote:


So were people kept in prison like Kamiti? No. They were kept in walled concentration camps. Their homes were destroyed & burnt. From then on, movement into and out of these camps was controlled. There was a gate through which you entered the village and in many cases even the time one could leave the camp was limited to a few hours...like going to the fields, with escort & they'd hurry you up even before you could be done with your chores.

Not prison? Yes but very close. When you look at starvation, beatings,rapes & killings in the camps, it amounts to worse than prison!




These walled concentration camps would have to be massive to fit all the Kikuyus. Yaani everyone in Kirinyaga, Kiambu, Muranga, Nyeri and even those Kikuyus who were living outside central. And how many homeguards would you need? Given the staffing and infrastructure requirements , the colonial govt would have run out of money.

If all Kikuyus were being starved, the population would have been decimated from starvation and disease. Instead it appears that the population exploded during this period. And I believe it was because the Missionaries invested, building mission hospitals in central region a lot more than they did in others. So Kikuyus had better access to healthcare than other people.

And how do you explain the fact that many Kikuyus were thriving during this period. Kikuyus became highly educated. Take Mwai Kibaki for example. He attended Nyeri primary and then Mangu , both built by missioanaries. In 1955, the colonial govt saw it fit to send him to Makerere University.

Gikonyo Kiano also became the first Kenyan to earn a PhD during this period. He studied in California.

Very good schools were built in central region, giving the people access to education. And very good mission hospitals were built , giving people access to health. By contrast, Coast province for example didn't have scarcely any good schools.
radiomast
#57 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 5:20:17 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 425
Lolest! wrote:

PEV was circa 1500 lives lost. People killed in the 1950s range between 12K and 20K

Much earlier punitive expeditions would go as far as soldiers surrounding a village and indiscriminately shooting any moving human

At some point early in the colonial adventure, Meinertzhagen killed 1,500 people!



Im not sure where you got your number that 12K to 20K lives lost.

But if true then the Mwafrika is even with Mkoloni

1982 Coup: 150 dead
1984 Wagalla Masscare : 5000 to 10,000 dead
1991 Land clashes: 1500 dead,
1992 Molo clashes: 5000 dead
1997 Likoni Violence: 104 dead
2008: PEV 1500 dead
2017: Post election violence 100 dead

Not to mention the hundreds more killed everytime there is a political protest and the mysterious deaths of people like Adungosi, Musando, Jacob Juma, .......

Lolest!
#58 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 5:55:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,064
Location: Kianjokoma
radiomast wrote:
Lolest! wrote:

PEV was circa 1500 lives lost. People killed in the 1950s range between 12K and 20K

Much earlier punitive expeditions would go as far as soldiers surrounding a village and indiscriminately shooting any moving human

At some point early in the colonial adventure, Meinertzhagen killed 1,500 people!



Im not sure where you got your number that 12K to 20K lives lost.

But if true then the Mwafrika is even with Mkoloni

1982 Coup: 150 dead
1984 Wagalla Masscare : 5000 to 10,000 dead
1991 Land clashes: 1500 dead,
1992 Molo clashes: 5000 dead
1997 Likoni Violence: 104 dead
2008: PEV 1500 dead
2017: Post election violence 100 dead

Not to mention the hundreds more killed everytime there is a political protest and the mysterious deaths of people like Adungosi, Musando, Jacob Juma, .......


Official number of those killed by colonial govt security forces was around 11,500.

British Media wrote:
Officially the number of Mau Mau and other rebels killed was 11,000, including 1,090 convicts hanged by the British administration.

However, unofficial figures suggest a much larger number were killed in the counter-insurgency campaign.

The Kenya Human Rights Commission has said 90,000 Kenyans were executed, tortured or maimed during the crackdown, and 160,000 were detained in appalling conditions.

David Anderson, professor of African Politics at Oxford University, says he estimates the death toll in the conflict to have been as high as 25,000.

He said: "Everything that could happen did happen. Allegations about beatings and violence were widespread. Basically you could get away with murder. It was systematic."


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-12997138

Quote:
Deaths among the Kikuyu were massive. Official figures gave the total of Mau Mau "killed in combat" as 11,503. Most were slaughtered in cold blood, many were entirely innocent, and the real total was probably over 20,000. By Caroline Elkins's estimate, at least 160,000 Kikuyu were detained (almost all without trial) and often brutally ill-treated. Torture was routine.

https://www.independent....ed-by-david-748263.html

Both 'Britain's Gulag' & 'Histories of the Hanged' delve deep into the subject of the atrocities of the 1950s Emergency. Have a look.

This was just one conflict. I have given you another case where in a punitive expedition 1500 Africans were killed. This was especially common in the early years of colonialism as they tried to prove who was boss.

In terms of bloodbath, the British beat all our leaders.

Your sources?
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radiomast
#59 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 6:02:42 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 425
madhaquer wrote:


In fact apart from Kenya, it is only in South Africa, Zimbabwe and Namibia where there were actual settler communities. (immigrants who moved in with no intent of ever going back home). In all those countries, independence was delayed.

What is most despicable is that in Kenya power was handed over to the loyalists and not the actual freedom fighters. It is from here that the rot in the government and it's institutions like the judiciary and police force were actually inherited.


I actually agree with you that our first set of leaders were the biggest disappointment. They set Kenya on the wrong path.

Which is why I said that on balance, it might have been better if Independence was delayed until Mwafrika understood how to govern for the people.

The first set of leaders created a culture where people in power governed for themselves and their immediate famililes. Not for the people. Thats why today you see the grandchildren of Mbiyu Koinange fighting over an inheritance worth Ksh 14 Billion.

It would be much better if these billions were used for the betterment of Kenya e.g. building roads, hospitals etc. We have threads on wazua of people decrying the state of Kenyatta hospital and the poor state of roads and traffic.

It is precisely because our country ingrained a culture of looting. Everyone who assumes a leadership position goes in with the mentality that they have to loot as much as possible. Even people who are already wealthy like Kidero and Sonko.
Lolest!
#60 Posted : Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,064
Location: Kianjokoma
Quote:
These walled concentration camps would have to be massive to fit all the Kikuyus. Yaani everyone in Kirinyaga, Kiambu, Muranga, Nyeri and even those Kikuyus who were living outside central. And how many homeguards would you need? Given the staffing and infrastructure requirements , the colonial govt would have run out of money.
This is clearly a matter that you haven't read/ found out about. Villagisation happened. People who lived through it are alive and remember where the villages were.
If all Kikuyus were being starved, the population would have been decimated from starvation and disease. Instead it appears that the population exploded during this period. And I believe it was because the Missionaries invested, building mission hospitals in central region a lot more than they did in others. So Kikuyus had better access to healthcare than other people.
I am not disagreeing on the role of the white govt & missionaries in setting up health infrastructure. My disagreement is on brutalisation & deaths. The colonial govt was terrible
And how do you explain the fact that many Kikuyus were thriving during this period. Kikuyus became highly educated. Take Mwai Kibaki for example. He attended Nyeri primary and then Mangu , both built by missioanaries. In 1955, the colonial govt saw it fit to send him to Makerere University.

Gikonyo Kiano also became the first Kenyan to earn a PhD during this period. He studied in California.

Very many missed out as well. Some just missed out because their parents were associated with the 'terrorists'. Schools were closed just because they had been started by independent churches and nationalists. Again, missionaries education + health had played their part. Can't argue with that.


Very good schools were built in central region, giving the people access to education. And very good mission hospitals were built , giving people access to health. By contrast, Coast province for example didn't have scarcely any good schools

Mostly, Christian missionaries started these. We remain thankful for them.
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